held within the 41st Conference of the Estonian
National Museum "Ultural Identity of Arctic Peoples"
in the Exhibition Building of the ENM on 15 April 2000.

Participated: Kjell Olsen (Alta), Gábor Wilhelm (Budapest), Ildikó Lehtinen (Helsinki), Tatyana Sem (St. Petersburg), Irina Karapetova (St. Petersburg), Karina Solovyova (St. Petersburg), Yelena Pivneva (Moscow), Yelena Martynova (Tobolsk), Tatyana Minniyakhmetova (Tartu), Eva Toulouze (Tartu), Art Leete (Tartu).

The discussion was based on the following papers, e.g.:

Marjut Huuskonen (Turku) "Arctic Descriptions of Wind. An Example of the Relation of Man and Natural Forces in the Northern Sámi Oral History",

Liivo Niglas (Tartu) "Reindeer as a Moulder of the Yamal Nenets Identity".

Art Leete: First, we are going to discuss the two texts and later on we will go on with the discussion of more general aspects of Arctic Cultures. Liivo Niglas has obtained his ideas about the overall importance of reindeer among the Yamal Nenets during his fieldwork trips to these regions, and these ideas are his personal impressions. I have argued with him that earlier sources (Yevladov and Chernechov) do not indicate the central role of reindeer among Yamal Nenets. Liivo Niglas has suggested that the present role of reindeer might have developed in the recent past. With the Nenets living in the tundra areas in greater isolation from administrative and economic centres (government financial support decreasing, helicopter traffic rare, radio stations not functioning etc.), their general approach is not open to new ideas (including movement to large settled areas), people are disappointed about perestroika.

Irina Karapetova: Yevladov, Chernechov, Zhitkov and others who have been to Yamal, for them it was obvious that reindeer are the central feature in that culture and provide them with everything that they need in life. This is how it was and how it will be.

Tatyana Sem: Reindeer are not as central as it is in the Tungus people's worldview. This is strange.

Irina Karapetova: Why? One of the most important gods created reindeer.

Tatyana Sem: Exactly, the one who created reindeer does not exist in reindeer. This characterises their worldview.

Irina Karapetova: By no means. They are nomads after all.

Tatyana Sem: I agree with this. Yet they perceive reindeer differently.

Irina Karapetova: The attitudes of Nenets to reindeer have not been reported as extensively as in the Tungus-Manchu people. Nowadays, it helps to maintain their unique lifestyle. Their self-perception, as being special people, is based on reindeer herding. Yet, for the Eastern Khanties, reindeer herding is not such an essential activity. Unlike the Nenets, in these areas, it is a symbolic activity. For Nenets, however, this is a part of life without which they cannot survive.

Tatyana Sem: Worldview and sources of living are two different things.

Irina Karpetova: This is related to other aspects and should be viewed in that context.

Tatyana Sem: It is, but there is no one-to-one relationship. We can make a typological analysis and compare different attitudes of Northern peoples to reindeer rearing.

Irina Karapetova: Normally, we view people's lifestyle as a whole and as such we cannot take a part of it and consider it separately. We have everything as a complexity of items. Yugan Khanties, for example, who traditionally had 15. 20 reindeer, not more than 30, but normally 5. 10, have also maintained this kind of attitude to reindeer. In an area around the Tromyugan River, people have normally more reindeer. Around the Pim River, there are 1. 10 reindeer, 20 at the maximum. Reindeer were mostly used for sacrificial and transportation purposes. That is it. They were not killed for fur or other practical purposes. For that, wild reindeer were used. This has also come down to the present time. At least what concerns the areas around the Yugan River. It is the furs of wild reindeer that are used for making clothes. This is evident.

Art Leete: With Anzori Barkalaja I was in the area around the Pim River and Khanties normally had 10 reindeer there. They said they had really few reindeer and therefore could not be used for economic purposes. Yet reindeer are very important for them. They said they felt fine when they had some. Reindeer are for the soul. And sometimes you can visit your brother.

Irina Karapetova: This has always been the case among the Eastern Khanties. An engine may break down, not a reindeer. Reindeer are the most secure. The Eastern Khanties keep them for the soul, yet in Northern areas they are essential in every aspect.

Yelena Martynova: In Eastern regions, people make a distinction between real Khanties who have reindeer and Ostyaks who do not have reindeer and who live like Russians. Real Khanties should have reindeer, even if only 10.

Tatyana Sem: That is the same among the Evenks. The Evenks are those who hunt. The Tungus live among Russians. This is the way of self-determination.

Yelena Martynova: Around the Kazym River, real Khanties are said to be those who have reindeer and live in chums.

Irina Karapetova: In the areas around the Kazym River, reindeer herding is still an essential livelihood. Unlike that, in the Pim region, they make an enclosure and keep reindeer in there. Yet in the Kazym region, traditionally, herds have not been very large.

Yelena Martynova: Coming back to the text by Niglas, we can compare identities of Northern Khanties and Nenets. Northern Khanties think Nenets have bigger herds. They think this even if their herds are also large. And I have heard Khanties saying that reindeer rearing has come to their area from the Nenets. And because Nenets raise reindeer, the people are more developed and have higher intelligence. And Khanties themselves admit this. A woman told me that reindeer rearing spread to them from the people called Tsoras living in the north from the tundra region where Nenets live. That Nenets were developing while Khanties were uncivilised and primitive. As Khanties did not have reindeer before, they obtained reindeer from Nenets and thus became more civilised. This indicates that reindeer rearing is also related to a general level of development in society.

Irina Karapetova: I have also a tale to tell you. The forest Nenets Yuri Vella told us that Khanties are hard working but Nenets are thoughtful. When an engine of a boat breaks down, a Khanty dismantles the engine and puts it together, again dismantles and puts it together. A Nenets takes a seat, leans back against the battens of a chum, unless his wife says that everybody else has left for picking berries, except for the two of them sitting there. Then he goes to the engine, mends it quickly and drives.

Yelena Martynova: Khanties have family names that have their origin in Nenets. Khanty women consider Ur-ne, a Nenets woman to be more energetic and agile. I know a Khanty woman, a good acquaintance of mine, who lives in Voikar village, Shuryshkary region. She states "You are like a Nenets woman". When a Khanty woman does something really quickly, they say she does it like a Nenets, because Khanty people are slower. This is because Khanties go fishing and think all the time, whereas Nenets are nomads.

Irina Karapetova: This is obvious. They have to pack their things quickly and set off. This is inherent in a nomadic lifestyle.

Yelena Martynova: On the other hand, they say that Nenets women do not want to get married to Khanty men, because they are more well off as reindeer herders, and such a marriage would not be a prestigious one. Also, Khanties have more taboos. Nenets women just cannot marry Khanty men. The status of Nenets women is not so restricted.

Irina Karapetova: I do not think so.

Yelena Martynova: Northern Khanties do. I would not say that either, but this is their opinion. Khanty women get married to Nenets men, this is prestigious and their situation there is more permissive. Yet Nenets women would not get married to Khanty men.

Irina Karapetova: While among Nenets people, we were held back every moment: do not go over there, do not step there, do not touch this. We were in Kolguyev and Tarkey-sale tundra. Nowadays, Nenets are also becoming more tolerant.

Gábor Wilhelm: Sámi have rich colourful diverse folk costumes. And they have reindeer in the north. And in the Northern areas, forest Sámi have a clear picture of a pure Sámi which is definitely nomadic.

Kjell Olsen: But I just wonder if that Sámi picture is created from outside because when you read descriptions you see that coastal Sámis are a kind of declining species. And these Kolt Sámis, they are the worst. And then you have the noble savage, the reindeer herder in the interior. So I wonder if that was a particular Sámi idea, or is it something you have found in these descriptions. It is very typical to see these in the descriptions from the 16. 17^th centuries. They talk about the real Sámi, the heroic noble savage and those who have been too much in touch with modern culture on the coastline. And then you have the Russian part, these Kolt Sámis who are the worst.

Gábor Wilhelm: But I have to reply to this point, I think it is connected to that dimension in which we have to draw the frame we are using for explanation. For example, different case studies. Because, as far as we know, regarding social interaction, this plays a very important role in the context situation. And, of course, this kind of reindeer herding has a very long history. If you take the situation in the 15. 17^th centuries, it was quite different, as we know. And it was much more visible in the forest Nenets and so on. So it has a noticeable history we can follow back and of course it has also these connections with the state, with other ethnic fibres. One of the most important factors is the question of control. So, if you can control your environment, your way of life, it is not so important whether you are a hunter, fisherman or a reindeer herder. But, if there are some more powerful agents in this situation and you have to contrast yourself to these people who are richer, more powerful and so on, these very symbolic things . markers become very important.

There are no reindeer in Hokkaido Island in Ainus, but hunting is very important as a symbolic means. Their life does not depend on hunting, of course. They do it illegally. But it has a very important symbolic significance to define their personality. It is the same among the Indians in North America etc. So hunting can also play a similar role as reindeer herding in different situations.

Irina Karapetova: This is with every ethnic group that some are considered to be worse. Bulgarians have some inhabitants in Gabrovo. Russians have also theirs. Nenets became a separate people only because of reindeer herding. This has to be borne in mind. Ainu people have lost their traditional culture completely. And they may think that once they were good hunters and they are known for this. Therefore it is symbolic for them. For Nenets people, reindeer rearing is part of their life not a symbol. Most Nenets continue to exist as a ethnic group because of reindeer. This is their principal livelihood.

Gábor Wilhelm: Yes, of course, these activities have a different importance in the culture and economy. And of course it is not always this simple. It is dependent on many factors and for example, for some peoples, fishing is very important, but fishing is very rarely a marker of richness or importance or nobility etc. So, my last point about this article is that this view of Liivo is a little bit narrow, because we have to make a larger framework. He says something that is of course true. But if he was to explain that, I think that is not enough to say that people think that reindeer are very important because they are very close to reindeer. So it is not a real explanation. But if you take this framework, the history of the economy, today's situation, no money, state farms now, etc. so it is something that could exist etc.

Irina Karapetova: This is the whole world. This is all simple with Ainus. They have got hunting, robes, made of nettle fibre cloth decorated with certain patterns, bear feasting. They maintain it on a folklorist stage and this is what unites them. Folklorist level of culture unites them. They do not have a traditional culture. We consider things from two completely different viewpoints. We cannot compare them.

Gábor Wilhelm: If you look at reindeer herding, and at its history, it never plays more of a main role than today. This is the fact because they had also fishing, they hunted seals in the Yamal Peninsula and also in the North Sea. But then began the period of tax collecting by the Russians and this kind of big herding is the consequence of tax collecting, because they had to collect resources to pay that. And another reaction is the trapping by Khanty people. I am saying that it is always a reaction to a more powerful factor. The relationships with Russians are very important, for example, the system of tax collecting and it changes in the 20^th century, for example the attitude to the state, the privatisation etc. And if you have a real choice to change your economy, what happened in the Yamal region between fishing and reindeer herding and hunting that was very important. It disappeared after some time. It is another situation if you are in a very constrained frame of choice . either to go to village or town, or to have reindeer. It is a very bipolar situation and it is much more constrained. And I am thinking of the factors in the explanation.

Irina Karapetova: They are not able to find their place in this New World, if they have no education and interests. All this ends in drinking. They feel that reindeer rearing is an axis that helps them to feel themselves as valuable people who can do something really well and live on it.

Tatyana Sem: I am saying that in the 1970s, a sociological inquiry into the social statistics and attitude to the traditional lifestyle of northern people was carried out in Novosibirsk. This revealed three or four separate groups. Firstly, those who accept the European lifestyle and adopt this. Secondly, those who feel unsure about their behaviour and are therefore most badly affected by it. And thirdly, those who return to a traditional way of life. In this respect, by now this has not changed much. These three groups are still there. We are speaking of the factors affecting identity. They are belonging to and the creation of the future model. Up-to-date standards and what are people's expectations. Not very long ago, this was related to characteristics of ethnic identity. We recognised that Ainu people, as with any other people, the most important is to identify affiliation. For Ainus it means hunting or fishing. It means type of clothing and ornaments, and religion . funeral customs, folk calendar festivals. And all that forms identity. Examination of Yukagir and Evenk peoples, i.e. the peoples living on hunting and reindeer rearing, indicates that reindeer basically determine their daily routine, despite that hunting takes up more time. However, they prefer to identify themselves as hunters. In their worldview, reindeer are wild and hunted, rather than tamed and herded. Let's recall neolithic (late Stone Age) stone paintings, for example, where we can see the cosmic hunt for reindeer that is the symbol of the whole universe. Nowadays, this is also there in Tungus shamanism. It also persists in folklore. Is it also in West-Siberian peoples that reindeer are the central figure for them?

Yelena Pivneva: Look at drawings by Nenets children, for example. What is the underlying idea there? Reindeer.

Tatyana Sem: It is related to livelihood after all.

Yelena Pivneva: Yet what their worldview is based on?

Tatyana Sem: It has different components. I wonder if reindeer are so fundamentally central in the traditional worldview of West-Siberian peoples?

Yelena Pivneva: Depends on the people. It is in the Nenets.

Tatyana Sem: How about the re-acquired reindeer rearing in Khanties?

Yelena Martynova, Irina Karapetova, Karina Solovyova, Yelena Pivneva: What do you mean by re-acquired? It just had different forms before.

Yelena Martynova: In earlier times, reindeer have played a different role. Nowadays, reindeer herding also indicates traditional lifestyle. In mythology, a horse is actually the most important. Even a bear is not that important. All heroes ride on horseback.

Tatyana Sem: Is not it that this basic layer hinders the more recent transfer to the reindeer as the central symbol in their worldview?

Ildikó Lehtinen: I think Gábor has put it very nicely. When we speak about identity, we always consider contemporary life. Yet his idea is that, through time, the ethnic identity and worldview of Yamal Nenets have changed. That is the idea. We all understand that it is evident in their mythology and children's drawings. An important aspect is that their identity has changed. Liivo Niglas has only examined contemporary factors. Yet they should be looked at in a wider context.

Irina Karapetova: Earlier, people hunted wild reindeer, from Norway through the Southern areas of Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug across Siberia. Yet they were not Nenets or Khanty that have formed only recently.

Ildikó Lehtinen: And then later reindeer are at the centre of their life . this is the life that reindeer are used in most spheres.

Yelena Martynova: Nowadays Nenets are reindeer herders, yet this was not the case before, in the 18^th century.

Irina Karapetova: Anyway, their whole life is related to reindeer. They used to be nomadic people.

Ildikó Lehtinen: The life of Nenets people has also involved reindeer rearing in earlier periods, yet they did not have so many reindeer in so large quantities as they do now. Reindeer have been at the centre of their life and an important component of their identity, however.

Irina Karapetova: Nenets people are nomads, while Khanties are half-settled: they are completely different cultures.

Gábor Wilhelm: I think it is a different thing to look at the economy from a historical perspective and it is quite a different thing to speak about ethnic symbols, and if you look at them, they are in most cases very simple. Costumes, reindeer rearing, hunting, fishing etc. . they are very simple things and it is easy to communicate between different groups, between hunters, reindeer herders and so on. And if you look at culture, it consists of millions of things, and only some are taken as symbols. It could be anything, for instance it could be shamanism.

Tatyana Sem: Hunters have reindeer as the world tree. This is their attitude to the world. This is so in East-Siberia, in Evenk and Yukagir peoples.

Irina Karapetova: But it is different in West-Siberia.

Yelena Martynova: It is the world river that is the symbol, not the world tree. In Khanty and Mansi peoples, everything is connected with the river. Upper World is around the upper course of the river and Underworld is around the lower course of the river. The tree is not an important factor in their worldview. Everywhere, the guardian spirits . hosts of rivers are the most important creatures.

When speaking of symbols, diverse aspects should be considered. There are internal and external symbols. Considering the written sources about Ob-Ugrians, we may have an impression that Crow Day is an essential festival for them. It is on the 7 April. I have studied this festival particularly. And it was obvious very quickly that none of Khanty or Mansi festivals fall on a certain date. This is held before the summer fishing season starts and involves making sacrifices to water spirits, in order to have a better catch. Similarly, there is a festival before the winter hunting season. Yet this festival is held on a certain date . 7 April. All Khanty and Mansi festivals are without dates. Depending on when spring starts, also sacrifices to water spirits are made, similarly in winter. Depending on when winter starts, also a sacrificial ceremony is held, in order to guarantee hunting success. Yet according to the old calendar, the Crow Day falls on 23 March, which is the Annunciation Day¹ in the Christian World. Basically, it is a pagan festival, but is held on the Annunciation Day. I have been told many times that on that day, the wife of the Supreme God got a message. There are diverse story lines . whether she will give birth to a son or spring will come. This indicates that there is another festival behind this spring festival. Also, not all Khanty and Mansi peoples celebrate the Crow Day. There are those who have not heard of that day at all. Bear feasting is considered as the central cultural symbol till now. In Khanty and Mansi cultures, this bear feasting is the most important. It even seems to me that when speaking of the 19^th century, this festival did not have that central importance, as is attributed today. The kill was marked and a ritual was performed, yet this was not regarded as so important.

Ildikó Lehtinen: Considering material cultural heritage, clothes have also become meaningful particularly in the 20^th century. This means that there were differences between clothes of different groups, yet this century it became symbolically particularly important. This is not only in Siberia, it is also in Hungary and elsewhere.

Gábor Wilhelm: And even folk costumes can have internal or external symbols. Some signs and motives in them are only for the members of the group. It is if she is married or not etc. But the costumes, such as Setu costumes, bright colours and so on, it is for external observers for people outside the group. It has another, symbolic meaning.

Ildikó Lehtinen: I meant that it is 20^th century that clothing became a symbol of ethnic identity. There have always been differences in clothing, yet it was only recently that clothing became a symbol of ethnic identity. It is only in the 20^th century that clothing of Khanty, Mansi and Nenets peoples became clearly distinguished. This was not the case in the 19^th century.

Irina Karapetova: In earlier times, diversity was greater, now it is gradually moving towards uniformity. Yet the clothing of Nenets is clearly different from that of Khanties.

In Ainu people, the above mentioned factors are the only ones presently consolidating ethnic unity.

Yelena Pivneva: But the people who live in towns or large settlements and identify themselves as Khanties do not wear traditional clothes any longer, if only as festive clothes. On what is their identity based, then? Which are the weighty consolidating factors that differentiate them from other peoples?

Irina Karapetova: This is a new topic. Moldanova² has written about it. She differentiates the Khanties who live in towns, large settlements and who follow a traditional lifestyle.

Yelena Pivneva: Yet, which are the consolidating factors then? This is even more important then, we have contacts with it. This is a new stage as traditional culture is fading. We understand that identity was based on traditional sources of living, clothing etc. And now a question about the means of the maintenance of identity arises.

Irina Karapetova: This is dependent on how people identify themselves, whether Russian, Finn or Estonian.

Tatyana Sem: Nowadays ethnic differentiating factors have become ethno-consolidating. They have moved to another level of mentality, from exterior to interior. It can be food, language or perhaps some elements of mental culture, not clothing, although it can be there in accessories and ornaments.

Art Leete: Now we should probably turn to the paper by Marjut Huuskonen. While the paper by Liivo Niglas dealt with reindeer, the present one by Marjut Huuskonen examines the environment. In Arctic cultures, the environment factor is considered a very important one. The environment where these peoples live determines the specific features of Arctic cultures, peoples' mental and psychic properties. Such ideas are there. And in this case, it is connected with the wind in particular.

Tatyana Sem: Here a hero's fight with the chaos has been displayed, and his mastery over chaos. Also, there is a transformation ritual, the wind as a sanctuary element, connected with shamanism. He ties himself to the stone, which signifies Sámi ancestors. And he rises high in the sky. Nanai people have also a counterpart to it. This is pure folklore, yet the idea is absolutely identical. The hero fights with natural elements in the form of three suns. But the wind is a shaman's assistant. During the ritual, the wind helps the shaman to move to another stage, new quality, so that he could help people. I see here direct counterparts. This is very interesting. Because here there is the Sámi attitude where shamanism has become witchcraft. There are influences from the outside. Sámi people have ancestor worship, but in Nanai people ancestor worship has mingled with shamanism. They are, then, two different world views, yet in both cultures people identify themselves with the sacral world through the image of natural element, here the wind.

Ildikó Lehtinen: There was an interesting methodology that was used for the examination of aspects related to nature. The wind is something very abstract, hard to deal with. It is interesting that Marjut Huuskonen has two different sources about the relationship between man and the wind, yet it is hard to say how to move on with this material. For Northern peoples, however, the wind is a very important phenomenon.

Yelena Martynova: Khanties have also a god of the wind.

Tatyana Minniyakhmetova: We (Udmurts) have also a god of the wind. And there is also the gale and its host. And there is a weak wind and its host. Sometimes the wind is a very necessary phenomenon and there are special chants and songs for turning to the hosts, in order to have the wind blowing. Evidently, it is the same in the tundra belt that sometimes the wind is wanted and sometimes not.

Tatyana Sem: The wind is the symbol of sacredness. I was able to recall some more conceptual ideas related to the wind. In Nanai people, the wind is the creator of the universe. The wind takes some foam from the prototype ocean with it, and on the basis of that the earth and everything else are created. This conception might seem somewhat archaic, that same idea is also there in China. The Chinese worldview involves similar idea and activities. Yet this is a wider phenomenon. Ainu people also hold an idea that water creates foam and foam creates islands. In traditional thought, the wind is the symbol of the germ of movement and activity. Therefore, it would definitely play an important part later on. Also, the wind is a very indicative aspect. We can feel it. And it plays a part in the use of natural resources. In traditional cultures living in Northern areas, undoubtedly peoples' lives are dependent upon nature. So is the land one of the components of the sacral world. It has also driven the idea of the fertility cult and has given ground to many peoples' traditional festivals and customs. It is dependent upon the vital survival of nature. This can be seen in many peoples, if reindeer herders, hunters or fishermen. It involves an extremely wide scope of issues. Perception of the world alive is also held nowadays. And it has not been neglected in Siberian peoples, even among the intelligentsia. Our perception of the world is closely connected with the scientific paradigm. Yet when we think back, philosophy, science, arts and religion, they all have an identical source of existence. Our civilisation should also return to that source, yet on a different stage of mythological consciousness. The world is trying to absorb the experience of Arctic civilisation.

Ildikó Lehtinen: The wind was extremely important in the Ancient world. It is already there in Homer's "Iliad". Yet Arctic and Ancient worlds are completely different things.

Art Leete: What Fellman says is more related to the European literary tradition. It is not connected with Sámi mythology. The idea of it probably is to compare these two approaches.

Kjell Olsen: It is interesting that you still find this kind of division in Northern Norway. In the Southern part you do not think about the wind, but in the Northern part you always talk about the weather. In the Southern part you talk about the weather, but in the North you say "He is strong today", you have a personal relationship with the weather. And this way of oral storytelling has also been transmitted to the present day. Particularly about what you did in the mountains, when fishing. The weather was a very important part of these stories. This is something that is not there in the Southern part. But it is not particularly Sámi tradition today, it is a North-Norwegian tradition, this way of talking about the weather.

Art Leete: Let us consider the issue within a wider context, not just the wind aspect. Probably you all have considered the connections between Arctic cultures and the environment.

Yelena Pivneva: It is of no doubt that nature is a predominant factor for Arctic peoples. Traditional lifestyle involves earning the means of a livelihood which in turn involves nature. People used to live in balance with the resources in their surroundings. Traditional economy and even population corresponded to natural resources.

Art Leete: To be more specific, there is a film director named Arvo Iho, and he has made a film "The Observer". And this film is about a woman who lives all alone on a lonely island somewhere in the North. There is a nature preserve, and a young Estonian man goes there. And the film is about how they spend summer there. The man observes birds there. An important aspect there in the film is the impact of nature on their psychic stability. The woman lives alone far in the North and this has brought about some mental disorders. And I do not think the producer has made this idea up. The idea that people living in Northern areas are not quite normal is quite widespread.

Yelena Pivneva: Not abnormal but different. Let us consider attitude to time, for example. In fieldwork trips, I have repeatedly experienced it: you make an appointment with a Khanty. Yet never ever have any of them turned up in time. They live in a totally different system of time and space. They do not have any idea about punctuality. This is just one aspect of their distinctive way of thinking in connection with nature.

Irina Karapetova: What about distances? You just go and go. Whenever you ask a Khanty `how much is the distance', he says `a kilometre'. There is a kilometre wherever you want to go.

Art Leete: I have also experienced their attitudes to time and space. Once Russian workers dropped us with Khanties somewhere in the forest. From that point, we had to go on to a seasonal settlement. The driver asked the Khanties: "How long do you have to go from here?" . "Yeah, two kilometres, but it may be ten kilometres for Russians."

Yelena Pivneva: Why cannot Northern peoples get used to the work in factories and plants? They are not able to work in a closed area, with a determined rhythm. This may be connected with the influences of environmental conditions.

Art Leete: In his diary, Kannisto has numerous accounts saying that Mansi people cannot work with him. There is an example: Kannisto starts working with an informant at 8 or 9 in the morning. They work until 10 o'clock in the evening when Kannisto lets the informant go home. Kannisto himself writes scholarship applications to Helsinki throughout the whole night. At 7 in the morning he goes to sleep and at 8 the Mansi comes and they go on with the work. And then at 3 in the afternoon he has noted that he feels a bit tired and let the Mansi go home. And then he wonders why Mansi do not want work with him. Even for me, this would be hard work indeed, not to mention Mansi.

Tatyana Sem: Not long ago, while dealing the materials on identity, I got hold of very interesting accounts. Lopatin has noted that Nanai people are interesting, smart and clever people, yet he considers them to be lazy. Why? Because they spend a lot of time doing nothing and do not care about farming. When they are interested in the work, they are able to work day and night. And do everything quickly and neatly, but then it should have some connection with sources of livelihood, e.g. fishing, trading. This indicates that their relationship with reality is intuitive. First they think things over and adjust to situations and only then act. I have also experienced this while studying in the Department of Northern Peoples, Pedagogical University named after Herzen. Students have come to study there from various Northern areas, some of them have come there immediately after secondary education and some pursue their second higher education. They need some encouragement. I have realised that according to the concept of socio-economic development of the Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug (compiled by representatives of European and native cultures), Khanty and Mansi peoples, i.e. peoples who live in this region, display unusual thinking. This means that they have abstract and concrete imagery, thought combined. I agree with it, yet I would not put this so radically. Nobody would doubt in the rationality of logical thought, however, the artistic attitude of their thought is evident. In general, perception through associations is more characteristic of Northern peoples. This is the reason why their folklore and thought are well developed. This does not involve economy. Very often we speak about the dependence of worldview on the economic situation. Yet there is another, controversial idea about the influence of worldview on nature. Here the situation is as follows: if teaching at school is based on the logic of abstract thought, this will be somewhat difficult for the majority of native peoples in the North. This is nothing to do with their intelligence: it is their distinctive character that should be taken into consideration. Therefore, conceptual subjects should be combined with music and arts subjects. In the Department of Northern Peoples, this approach was already applied in the 1930s by Bogoraz. And it is also used in our days and it gives excellent results, very good specialists graduate from the university. At present, the department has a strong philosophical and cultural approach that enables students to have a better overview of their native culture through better general academic background on the one hand, and see problems within one's native culture on the other, and also combine the two approaches. The latter speaks of the thought and attitude of Northern peoples in general. It might be true to speak about Northern civilisation as a distinctive one.

Yelena Martynova: Again thought and associations. This reminded me of a different situation that happened to me in 1991 when there was still the Soviet Union. We were talking about symbols and determining them in Northern peoples. Yet I have also experienced the opposite situation when Northern peoples saw us through symbols. In Ovgort village around Synya River, Shuryshkary region, I was not able to put down any magic words, as many locals could not speak any Russian. In these areas, traditional culture is still alive. Everybody suggested that I should go to a woman whose family name was Pyrysyeva. They said that she knows them very well and can also speak to them in Russian. So we went to her. Her husband had died lately. I did not dare go for some time . she had the mourning dress. Finally we did. She turned out to be very kind, but her Russian was not so good. She had an ittyrma at home. It is a wooden figure of the dead person with national costume and it is kept at home for 40. 50 days. We asked her questions and she answered. We asked if we could see the doll. She took it out. I asked what was actually there. She said five jackets and a malitsa (coat made of reindeer fur). Anything else? Then came five cloth ribbons. I asked what was next. She then wanted to explain it to me, as it seemed to her I could not quite understand what it really was. She then wanted to explain it so that I would get the nature of it. Then, suddenly, she asked me:

"Have you been to Muzhi (centre of the region)?"

"Yes."

"Did you see the ittyrma of Lenin?"

This is the monument to Lenin. I was shocked. She said that Russians are a big nation group, they have large metal resources, and thus they have a large ittyrma. Khanty people are a small nation, and consequently they have a small ittyrma. For them, the ittyrma of Lenin symbolised the whole Soviet system. This indicates that they perceive the world through symbols.

Tatyana Minniyakhmetova: Our way of thinking is also somewhat different. Should anybody insult or humiliate me, for example, I am not thinking that I am insulted or humiliated. I am thinking about that person, how he has made me think so badly of him. I am thinking that he has humiliated himself. From that time on I would think of that person as inferior to me, because he humiliated himself and insulted himself.

Yelena Martynova: He himself probably did not realise that. But it is easier for you.

Tatyana Minniyakhmetova: Yes, it might be so. It is really easier for me, because then it is him who is bad, not me.

As what Yelena Pivneva said that a Khanty would never come in time, the Udmurts do not have the concept about the right time either. When they say that it is 1 o'clock in the afternoon, for Udmurts it is just the afternoon. But with Tatar and Bashkir peoples, they would not come at all if you do not call them three times. This is their tradition. It can be that Khanties have also some custom behind it.

Yelena Pivneva: This is just the attitude to time.

Tatyana Minniyakhmetova: I do not think this is just the attitude, this can also be the tradition. How do you know what they have behind it?

Ildikó Lehtinen: This is from nature, I think.

Irina Karapetova: They live in the forest, go somewhere if they wish and talk to their neighbor.

Yelena Martynova: Need not go to work at a certain time.

Art Leete: As with us. We were at the Khanties in the forest with Anzori Barkalaja and young Danish lady Auli Valta. Then a Khanty from another seasonal dwelling area came and invited us to visit him on Monday. And he left. And we started to think which day we were actually having. Anzori said that he has become a Khanty and does not care about time. Auli Valta started to count days in the calendar, as Europeans do. She counted how many days we had been in the forest and when we had come there. Then she said that it might be Saturday. Then the Khanty said:

"As women have not come back from the town, it must be Friday then."

It can be that the Khanty who called us to visit him also had the European attitude to time here. I do not think he cared what day it was really.

Tatyana Sem: It comes out, then, that we do not speak about Northern peoples only, but also about other peoples and ourselves. Also, it comes out that, through the examination of Northern peoples, we also learn about ourselves.

Art Leete: The present discussion that started with the natural phenomenon has now taken us to the issue that is not directly related to the wind. Although the discussion was initially based on the two texts about reindeer and the wind, we evidently covered a wider range of subjects here. Within the conference and the present workshop, we have discussed diverse aspects of the identity of Arctic cultures, also by the examination of them against Southern cultures. This was not my purpose that the researchers who have come to participate in the conference would discuss such a wide range of identity aspects. Yet the reports and discussions held within the conference revealed many aspects (e.g. material culture, reindeer herding, hunting, mythology, shamanism, worldview, literature, language, folk art, environment) that are related to identity. And in combination, these aspects create a viewpoint stating which issues are important for a particular worldview or identity.

Translated by Epp Uustalu

¹ Festival of the Christian church year, celebrated on 25 March. On that day, angel Gabriel announced to the Virgin Mary that she would bear the Son of God, to be called Jesus.

² Tatyana Moldanova, a Khanty ethnologist.